Let me start by saying that this is entirely my opinion and reflects what I think alone. Not everyone will agree with this, but that’s what the comments area is for. I’m not trying to lower the Navy’s manning as all that does is create more work for me. These are just some of the things that piss me off and I really wish were different.
There are some things that make being in the Navy great. The friends you make and the camaraderie that can only be achieved by a collective hate for a boss. All the jokes and situations you end up in that are actually pretty funny. The drunken nights spent with friends when you say to each other “being in the Navy isn’t so bad.”
Most of the time you won’t be doing your job.
When you are thinking about joining the Navy, the recruiters will try as hard as they can to sell you on the job you’re looking for. They’ll show you a job sheet that describes all the important and interesting things you’ll be doing in the field. It almost seems to good to be true, because it is. Most of the day in the Navy is spent cleaning or running around and trying to find chiefs and officers to sign some bullshit paper. Sitting through a PowerPoint presentation on sexual harassment or alcohol abuse, or preparing for some upcoming inspection, which will last mere minutes and prove the man hours wasted on the preparation were unnecessary. You’ll have to work on some collateral duty, like Training Petty Officer, where you make sure everyone in your division reads a PowerPoint on recreational water safety, or some other bullshit, and then have to turn a report in on who attended the training and how it went. When it actually comes to doing your job, you’ll be so frustrated and exhausted from all the extra unrelated shit you’ve had to do throughout the day, that you’ll hate it and wish you just went to college and became an officer. The normal day to day is spent doing administrative crap like making lists, and reports, and training briefs. If you somehow avoid all of this, some civilian will already be doing your job for much more money and less bullshit than you have to deal with anyway.
You don’t really travel the world.
The easiest way to get some shmuck from Podunk, Idaho to join the Navy is to offer him the opportunity to travel the world and see things he can only read about in books. The truth is, while we visit some nice places sometimes, it’s usually not worth it. You’re usually in port for about 3 or 4 days, and will have to spend one of those days on the ship standing duty. When you do get to go out, you’ll always have to have a “liberty buddy” by your side, and have a curfew. Coming in after the curfew will result in you being restricted to the ship for the rest of the port visit, and a non-judicial punishment (NJP) a week or so later. There will usually be restrictions, like places being off-limits, not being able to do things like rent cars, jet-skiing, para-sailing, or other things you might want to do in an exotic port. The ports themselves are usually shitty. While a place might generally be considered exotic, you’ll pull into the shittiest part of it, and will immediately be surrounded by hookers, bars, and other unsavory offerings. Every port usually ends up with you in a drunken stupor wanting to go UA. (Our AWOL).
You work for some real assholes.
Obviously not everyone you work for will be an idiot, but a good chunk of them will, and they’ll usually be in pretty powerful positions. You figure that no matter what rank you are, as enlisted, you’ll be working for some kid who just got out of college and this is their first real job, making sure you do what you’re doing. Not to mention that unless these officers are prior enlisted, they’ll have no idea what your job entails. They’ll ask you a million questions and expect you to work miracles. The chiefs are not always better. While they have more credibility because they’ve been through it, they’re human too. When they have some punk kid who has been in the Navy less time than they’ve been out to sea, they get tired of hearing them bitch and complain about this or that needing to get done, thus “shit rolls downhill.” The chiefs used to be a force to be reckoned with, but nowadays, they’re like toothless wolves. All bark and snarl, but no bite. In the end, you can’t rationalize with these people, because they’ll either feed you some bullshit like “suck it up,” “we’re all sacrificing,” or just “I’m a Chief/Officer and I’m ordering you to do it!” Worst part about it, when they make stupid decisions they will never back down from it, no matter how irrational it is.
It’s all politics
One thing you’ll notice about your shipmates when you’ve been in for a while, is how they’re all just as miserable as you are. Those who aren’t miserable are the A-J squared away assholes. Everyone hates these people. Not out of jealousy, but because these people make it through life sucking dick and screwing others over to make themselves look good. These are the people who become “command favorites” and usually gain a considerable amount of clout with important people. These people will always be at the top, and if you’re on their shit list, life is going to majorly suck for you. The only way to truly excel in the Navy, is to swallow your pride, get on your knees, and try not to gag.
The double standard is the only standard.
This is one of the most frustrating things you’ll ever encounter. For instance, leaders like to reference instructions or regulations for enforcing the crap they give you, but when you read the same instruction and find something that contradicts what they said, it all of a sudden becomes open to interpretation, and the higher rank is going to win. Chief Messes are notorious for this. If a Chief is an alcoholic and gets in trouble out in town, it’s usually swept under the rug. The same goes with Chiefs who are overweight. They might obviously be out of standards, but they somehow pass weigh-ins or are conveniently exempted from the physical fitness assessment (PFA) for whatever reason. Yet, their subordinates will usually bare the full consequences of being a drunken fool in town, or will be out-processed because they can’t meet weight or physical fitness requirements. This also applies to other areas, like personnel. Women have a lot more power than men. Women can be sick and call off work, while men are expected to tough it out, and may only sleep during working hours if they have direct orders from the medical department, which is impossible to get unless you’re close to death. Women also usually get special treatment, especially when we’ve been underway for a while. Guys will bend over backwards for women, even at the sake of screwing over another shipmate, just so they can be in the good graces of the female. Here’s an example from where I work. Someone will come to the door with a computer problem. If it’s a male, no one wants to help him, or they tell him to put in a trouble ticket, or just refer him to me. Yet, when it’s a female, everyone’s helpful all of a sudden, stopping what they’re doing, just to help this girl out. All because they’re men, and as men, we’re stupid and we do stupid things because we always want to be seen as helpful to the ladies. If a bunch of second and third classes can do it, so can a bunch of senior leaders, and they do. This doesn’t apply to all women, but there are many women who understand this and use it to their advantage.
The stress will probably kill you.
If you figure an 18 year old does 20 years in the Navy, he’ll retire at 38, which is still relatively young. Unfortunately, the stress of having to work 100+ work weeks underway, and deal with endless frustrating bullshit, will leave this normal 38 year old man looking nearly twice his age. His hair will be gray, and his skin will be wrinkled and leathery. He’ll most likely have health problems or be overweight, and because he’s a veteran, will get substandard care at a 2nd or 3rd rate facility. He’ll have at least one failed marriage under his belt, maybe some kids who he doesn’t have a great relationship with, and will most likely be a heavy drinker. There have been many Sailors who’ve retired from the Navy, only to die from a heart attack, or other illness, because they just couldn’t adjust to the normalcy that living a civilian life brings. You might not hear it on the news, or read it in papers, but there are at least three dozen suicide attempts or threats made by Sailors every year. Between 1999 and 2003, there were 216 completed suicides amongst US Navy personnel. If he doesn’t die by his own hand, it’ll probably be from something he worked on or around during his career. We are working and living in an industrial workplace everyday, and there are still hundreds of former Sailors dying from asbestos related illnesses and other diseases caused by the ship environment. To be fair, there are programs in place to address all of these issues, but they have a long way to go to be effective. A PowerPoint on why you shouldn’t drink or kill yourself isn’t always the most effective means of helping someone who might really need it.
You’re married to the Navy.
With the amount of time spent out to sea or forward deployed, it’s only a matter of time before relationships crumble. There’s nothing that shows commitment like meeting a woman, and then after a few dates, having to get underway. It’s no secret that married and involved couples cheat, on both sides. A common phrase is “what happens underway, stays underway” and it’s generally accepted by both parties. When you’re out to sea for a long time, both you and your significant other will yearn for the affection and love that comes with a relationship. Sailors might find it in the arms of a lady in port, and their wives might find it with shore-based Sailors or other men back home. When they’re finally united, things are back to normal, and the outside activities are usually never addressed. When you finally retire, and you’re still with your husband or wife, he or she might not be able to get used to the idea of having you around all the time, and it’s common for relationships that survived a Naval career to fall apart when the Sailor retires.
You become unmarketable.
A common recruiting bullet, is the offer of training in a skill and then added experience. In reality, most of the stuff you’ll be working on will only apply to the Navy. If you decide to retire from the Navy, or even get out after your first tour, and haven’t gone to college, you’re pretty much out of the market for a job. Realistically, what can a Tomahawk technician or a network administrator who has been working on decades old equipment do in the civilian world? Nothing…unless you want to work for the Navy. Most of the civilian employees that come out to the ships to assist with major problems are just former Sailors themselves, who saw better money in working for the Navy instead of in the Navy. Now if that’s what you want to do, then you’re on the right track. The training the Navy gives you is so old and irrelevant to anything you’d see on the outside, that it’s really a waste of time. Half the time, it doesn’t even apply to your Navy job. I can’t count how many classes I’ve been to where the instructor starts out with “Now, you’ll never see or use this on a ship, but our curriculum hasn’t been updated yet, so we still have to teach it.” Even if the class is relevant, the class has been so condensed that they try to squeeze 6 months worth of instruction and training into a week or two, so you’ll never get to apply it. The only way to learn in the Navy is by someone showing you how it’s done. It’s usually the unofficial or wrong way, but it’s almost always the only way to get the systems to work. If you want to make a six figure salary, skip the Navy and go to college.
Update: #9 You can’t do college while you’re in.
You could use your GI Bill once you get out, but regardless of what the recruiters tell you, you can’t take college classes while you’re in. The Navy has college offices on most bases that help you enroll in classes, but your choices are very limited. School in the Navy is almost exclusively done through distance education, either on the Internet, or through books and proctored tests sent to your ship. The big problem is the schools that offer these courses. Schools like the University of Phoenix, or University of Maryland University (not to be confused with just the U of MD.) are pretty much unheard of. Do you really think if you’ve earned a degree in Information Technology or Business Manaement without ever stepping foot in a classroom, that you’ll be able to compete with job applicants who have degress from reputable schools like Penn State or UCLA? Good luck!
This is all stuff I didn’t realize until it was too late. Now, I’m a lifer. Unless something goes wrong and I’m booted out or something goes right and I get out and start a new life, I’ll most likely retire after 20. I’ll look older than I should, and will probably be an alcoholic suffering from major depression. I’ll most likely be alone, since all of my past relationships have been ruined because I was in the Navy. I’ll probably get out and work as a civilian for the Navy, making a considerable amount more than I ever did while I was in. This will be a bonus, since the health problems I developed during my career will require more treatment than I’ll ever be able to get from a veteran’s hospital. In the end, I’ll probably be homeless and end up freezing to death under a bridge on Christmas Eve with a bottle of Jack Daniel’s in my hand.
Can you think of any other reasons someone shouldn’t join the Navy?
Update[22June08]: After over a year of this post being up, someone wrote a rebuttal post on some of the positive reasons why someone should join the Navy. Please read the post on the Spider’s Manifesto blog.
Comments 90
I completely agree! Best blog ever!
Posted 10 Jul 2007 at 12:59 pm ¶Wow! That about sums it up! I’m a lifer too, but I won’t be with you under a bridge, I hate JD, lol..I like Crown Royal. If this is how a stellar network administrator feels, imagine what the not so shit hot sailor is going through.
Posted 10 Jul 2007 at 5:09 pm ¶feels like some deja vu reading this post….nothing can be done, I tried with the IG but nothing works. it’s gonna be balls deeps in your mouth to survive.
Posted 10 Jul 2007 at 8:30 pm ¶…How depressingly real. Although I do like to think I will be able to piece back together my life after only 8 years in, your probably right I should come to terms and accept the defeat the Navy has inevitably doomed me to…
Posted 11 Jul 2007 at 12:38 am ¶I thought of another one…
If your not Commissioned, your an idiot.
When entering the Navy as a rated, enlisted personel you choose your rate and then go to the school for it. Although, as you previously mentioned, the training is garbage you are still considered the “Subject Matter Expert.” Even still Officers who probably have a degree in Zoo-ology or the equivalency there-of try to tell you how to do your job. I personally am a technician and I love it when my divo. who has a degree in English comes to my space and tells me she is going to fix my gear. Oh thanks, im glad you are going to do that… Wish you would have told me that 3 years ago so I could have NOT JOINED THE NAVY! Anyway just a thought I came up with… Not to mention our work is never good enough.
Posted 11 Jul 2007 at 12:56 am ¶I’ve been out of the Navy for 15 years (only in for 3), and your post is just as applicable then as it is now (especially the part about “get on your knees, and try not to gag”)…
Posted 11 Jul 2007 at 5:49 am ¶I laughed so hard I cried (and cried so hard I had to laugh) after reading this post….
After 5 military moves in 6 years (both CONUS and OCONUS) during my 8 year relationship with my husband….he’s obliserving out of the Navy for many of your eloquently expressed reasons posted above.
I’m sure that there are peaks and valleys in any branch of service, but the current state of affairs in this particular industry is definitely a *valley* where the shit stops after making it’s long roll downhill.
Here’s hoping that you can find good stuff to hang onto ’til you get out (in addition to the bottle of JD)….
Posted 12 Jul 2007 at 4:54 am ¶Of course you don’t point out that the Navy is very forgiving of poor results and products. So for example if you can’t keep the computer systems up on a normal basis you won’t be fired in the Navy even though if you worked for a civilian institution you would be. Civilian companies do not save employees that have alchohol problems etc… they fire them. So get off your high horse and try to take a different view. Shippy.
Posted 13 Jul 2007 at 12:49 pm ¶Random Officer:I believe the poor results and products are due to the Navy. We work with antiquated equipment, receive little training, and then have to fulfill demands, that the systems have problems supporting, from leaders who don’t always know what they’re talking about. Instead of listening to reason, it’s “get it done!” or “well this guy higher than me wants it done.” Don’t blame the technicians who have to deal with the problems others create.
I agree people with alcohol problems shouldn’t be kept on. They should all be kicked out. Unfortunately, it doesn’t happen like that in the Navy. When they help one guy out, they should be fair and help another, regardles of his rank.
There’s no high horse here, Sir. This post, as negative as it sounds, will ring at least 90% true to anyone else in the Navy who reads it. By writing it I was trying to get the point across about the types of sacrifices people will make when they join an organization like this. It’s not just a Navy bashing. Thanks for the comment.
Posted 13 Jul 2007 at 1:42 pm ¶In response to post #8. Are you saying that you think it’s a good thing that the Navy keeps people around who don’t do their jobs and basically make life harder for the rest of us? I think that’s yet one more reason not to join. I worked in the civilian world for almost 15 years before joining, and I have hired and fired people myself. I’ve also been fired once, and I deserved it. It is not a good thing that we all have to work with people who don’t do their jobs.
Posted 13 Jul 2007 at 3:53 pm ¶Random Officer: Of course the Navy is forgiving of poor results and products, as the majority of products are designed by former Navy personnel and, in Old Boys Club manner, sold to their high-ranking friend for a large sum of money. Why use something that works and was free when you can pay $50,000 for something that works only when the planets align a certain way? There’s a limit to the quality of results that can be gotten with an inferior product.
Out of curiosity, how long did you hold a civilian job? Not a summer job, however noble and demanding and full of responsibility it may have been, but a job where fellow employees pay mortgages and send children through college. I, along with poster #10, have held actual jobs, and people there had very real problems. You are correct about people being fired for incompetence. The difference, however, is there is rarely the hypocrisy or double standard, and management has to be more knowledgeable than the people that work for them; the problem of an incapable leader isn’t simply solved by promoting them. In the civilian world, being 22 with a degree in criminal justice does not automatically mean you’re more intelligent and deserving than the people that work for you, that you’re above problems, or that you can’t embarrass those you work for.
Alcoholism is not limited to the Navy, nor is it limited to the lower ranks and class. I’m sure, if you did a study, you’d find the prevalence of alcoholism is pretty standard through the demographics. In the civilian world, middle managers are fired just as often and just as quickly as the janitors when they show up drunk. “Avoid the base hypocrisy of condemning in one man what you pass over in silence when committed by another.”-T. Roosevelt. There would be a profound drop in personnel of all ranks if this were true in the Navy. Look at other random officers; I promise you’ll find problems and incompetence there, too.
Posted 13 Jul 2007 at 5:45 pm ¶Anyone thinks the grass is greener. Anyone has some problems even if they look happy. Anyone do. I am working at private sector for a long time and fortunately I like my job. But sometimes you have to do such a crap things for your chief and get on your knees for damn shit bosses and running around for selling a smile to your clients even if that is not your intent. Still we are struggling to work again to eat and live, maybe not only for you but also for your spouse. When you enlisted in the navy at 18 or 19 years old, you have much thought to do or do not. 18 years old is enough adult. You have responsibility for your life and make that better one in there or anywhere.
Posted 14 Jul 2007 at 12:17 am ¶Right now you are there for you will not die under a bridge. Never sulk, someone is looking that you are doing good.
I find this little blog just another complaint of someone who is basically having a bad day,in one way or the other… what’s with people and their complaints about Navy clearly with the “sources of information” you’re citing from… You haven’t really done much in the Navy to begin with. Now of course recruiters sell you a dream fantasy of what the Navy is like, because it is, what it is.. a dream to motivate you into doing something that average Joe Smoe can’t do. I don’t know what rate you got suckered into, but please don’t complain if you didn’t make an high enough ASVAB score to get a job that deals with more than “cleaning, and looking for a chief or some officer to sign a stupid piece of of paper.” Now I know you may think…(which, yeah you said at the begininng, on how it’s your opinion.) the Powerpoint and such presentations, are bullshit but the fact is, unless information is passed out, idiots can get away with stupid shit, and kinda get away with it, because “NOBODY TOLD ME”. Then you mention that your job is so fustrating and exhausting, from doing all the unrelated stuff…well 3 words LEARN YOUR RATE!!! Stress, can’t be avoided no matter if you’re working at McDonalds, to working on the flight deck of a carrier, if you know your job, stress won’t affect you as much, unless you’re incredibily lazy.
I can’t even believe that you said you don’t travel the world. WTF??? I bet, even if you like to admit it or not, that you have actually been to a ton of places, that people from your home town, and even other branches of the military haven’t been to. Of course the length of the port visit can be a little disappointing, but its what you do in the port, that makes the difference. It’s not like the ship’s MWR program doesn’t offer you things to do such as: tours, hotels, etc., and if you don’t want to go through that organization, its not like you’re restricted from exploring a little. Your definition of shitty is obviously fucked up, if you thing that places like Thailand, Saipan, Guam, etc. ( the list keeps going too.) aren’t exotic? What do you do in port?? Do you sit in your hotel, or on the ship, because you can’t find a liberty buddy???? Then, you go out at night to the bar and get shit faced??? Well if that’s how you would like to spend your pay check then by all means go ahead, but with what you said as a lame excuse, is really sad.
“You work for some real assholes” Well the only reply to that is, You will work for an asshole boss, some less them others, until the day your retire, or until you become the boss yourself. Now I dislike the Ensigns that come in and try to “rule the world” to, but why should you complain about them?? They are just another Joe Smoe who got “suckered” in to this life to, only difference is that they when to college. I agree with the chiefs part, with one thing though, why try to rationalize anything with someone higher ranked??? It all how you approach the situation, show respect and respect will be given. (of course there are exceptions.
Politics…now why hate on people who take pride in their work, or how they…trust there are snakes, but please don’t over stereotype.
I do have to applaud you with the double standards thing, becauese females do pull some fucked up shit.
Well not to dock you to much more, my last complaint is what are you talking about with the college courses??? I personally have taken several college courses, and it doesnt matter where you took your course…the word acredited, have you heard of it?? the only difference between one or the other is, one costs more than the other…
Well thank you for such an amusing blog… from the sounds of it.. you just a bored IT with a lot time on you hands….jk
Posted 14 Jul 2007 at 7:41 am ¶OS2 “Dizzy”: I think you missed the point of this post. I can’t really say much about your comment because it’s primarily based on assumptions, a lot of which you know are incorrect. I never cited any sources, but I didn’t pull anything out of my ass either. Either the post was completely lost on you, or you have a hard time articulating your thoughts. Don’t judge the Navy by your first and only command. Thanks for the comment.
Posted 14 Jul 2007 at 2:51 pm ¶YOU SUCK AT LIFE!!!!! If you have been in the navy long enough to call yourself a lifer, and you are still wallowing around whining about how helpless you are to do anything about your situation; you MUST be trifling, lazy or just dense! The Navy is OURS and it is what we make of it; the easiest thing in the world to do is to criticize someone or something without putting any thought into coming up with a solution. If you carry yourself like a complainer, or someone who thinks everything is impossible then why would you expect anyone to give you any responsibility or respect? The way you present yourself to the world is the way the world sees you.
I can see from this blog that you are fairly well written, why don’t you put some of your energy into writing point papers that could actually make a difference when read by senior leadership. Make a paper on an alternative to liberty plans that you hate, or something, just make sure to put something in there about a solution; just complaining is utterly ordinary. You have to use the tools you have to make a difference.
Final note; those people you hate for being good at playing the navy game are just handling. They will be the ones who retire with less gray hair and less wrinkles. There is a happy medium; a certain amount of ass must be kissed in life whether you are in the Navy or not.
Suck it up and make a difference!
Posted 15 Jul 2007 at 12:30 am ¶I wonder, Dizzy, if you read the line where he said, “This is entirely my opinion.” An opinion, if you’re confused, is “a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact” (Oxford American Dictionary, since you wanted sources cited). The reason people place caveats on a work of opinion is to prevent overly verbose, inarticulate, and syntactically horrific responses from company yes-men who completely miss the point. You’re saying the Navy isn’t something the average Joe can’t do? You’re here, along with a great many of us, because you’re average. If you weren’t, you’d be building thermonuclear weapons or curing cancer or playing professional sports (judging by your nonexistent grasp of English, you certainly wouldn’t be writing the great American novel.) It’s been a while since I’ve done cleaning stations with a theoretical physicist.
Do you think people who know their rate well are exempt from stress? What a revelation and comfort that will be for pretty much the entire world.
As for the port visits section, you missed the point again. I agree we go places and it’s a good experience, something many people don’t get to do. You don’t, by any stretch, get to go to exotic foreign countries and steep yourself in their culture and history for weeks at a time. You go, have the fun that you can, experience what you can, and come back to the ship two days later. Going to the hooker and ladyboy capital of the world and never leaving the city limits makes you neither cultured nor a globetrotter; there are people for whom staying in a hotel in a foreign port isn’t the apex of life, some people aspire to do more.
And now college courses. I don’t deny that it’s good to take a few here and there, get some prerequisites out of the way and try to better yourself. There’s no way you can equate a course where you don’t apply, have no professor, go your own pace, and attend a physically non-existent school with a university education. As someone who attended a several-hundred year old reputable university, one that I had to apply to, wait for acceptance, and study for thousands of hours to earn a degree, well, I disagree that “it doesn’t matter where you took your course.” I’m fairly certain that Harvard or Yale or MIT would disagree that they’re much the same as the University of Maryland University, just more expensive. Accredited (not acredited, as you wrote) does not mean reputable, nor does it mean quality. Because you’re content wallowing in your own mediocrity doesn’t mean everybody is. One of the first things they teach you at Real People College is that there are opinions and they differ. You can’t refute someone’s opinion.
Posted 15 Jul 2007 at 2:20 am ¶First of all I would like to say this is really awesome, at least everyone is getting their opinions out there.
To take this blog as literally as possible it would essentially boil down to “Us vs. Them.” Hence if this blog was indeed created by US and you are THEM then why are you reading it, and why do you think that any of US give two shits about what you (THEM) think???
To take it as I personally did the first time I read it… Step back and pretend that you are someone thinking about joining the Navy but you are smarter than your average suburban couch potato so you decide to try and do some research. Being the smart person that you are as previously stated you don’t just throw on your blinders head out the door go to the recruiting office and read the bold print pamphlets they have at the door… “JOIN THE NAVY, ACCELERATE YOUR LIFE (Right into the gutter)” So in your infinite wisdom you decide to see if you can get some inside opinions and stumble across this page. Suddenly a little light is shed on the truths that you were indeed searching for. These are real people who are really experiencing it and yet some of you still seem to think this blog is not accurate??? What Navy are you in and on What Ship? Because it isn’t the US Navy and it isn’t on the same ship as me. I could be wrong but I do believe that was the intention of this blog, not to be a bitch session, not to complain about life sucking, and not to open a forum for sailors to bicker about how great/horrible the Navy is.
Last I just want to say the clearly, CLEARLY poster #13 has already perfected his gag reflex, and thus fall under the fourth reason not to join. A-J squared away and yet still can’t get enough sleep, must suck to be Narcoleptic. Oh and that makes him THEM incase you were wondering…
~Signed, Happy go lucky Shipmate!!!
Posted 15 Jul 2007 at 6:04 am ¶I scoped out your stuff. You have been writing forever. I especially liked the one where you have pictures from Lundquist.
I suppose since I am posting a comment under this blog I will put a couple of my comments in.
My toughest experience was in recruiting, when the pressure to “make things happen” was so great that you had to either deal with the failure or challenge your morals. Up until then I have never been challenged in that way. I hated it, absolutely hated it. I think your blog brings up many common and good points of view. One of which was that of quantity verses quality issue. I personally find this to be very frustrating. The fact that you pretty much cannot fire someone in the Navy unless they actually commit a crime, can make “discipline” almost futile. Some could waste 4 years of their life just trying to cross the finish line. Not trying to “make the best of the situation,” or taking pride in what they do regardless of what it is that they do. What do you do with these people? I mean they are only wasting their life and time, but those of us that do care…how do we deal with them, cause they do affect us? The ones you have to waste precious time searching for and “yelling” at, because they don’t care, or they want to get out. How do we phase out the need for quanity? Especially since they are changing the way we are getting trained.
I think your blog is thought provoking.
Posted 15 Jul 2007 at 6:23 am ¶READ BEFORE YOU COMMENT. I’ve been in the Navy for 6 1/2 years and am currently an E5. I’m pretty much set it my ways. If you’re going to comment, don’t try and tell me what I need to do to make it better. I’m already content where I’m at, regardless of the stuff I posted. With the amount of positive feedback I’m getting from this post, why not focus on listing the positive aspects of joining the Navy? Not one person has yet to comment on whether or not the things in my list are true or complete crap. Instead they’ve just made assumptions about the author. Focus on the point of the post, not me. Thanks for all the comments.
Posted 15 Jul 2007 at 1:21 pm ¶To comment on the validity of the complaints:
“Most of the time you won’t be doing your job”
-In my experience; (11 years) the navy IS inefficient in the use of time. One of the problems is that when one of our young Einstein’s goes and stabs someone or crashes a motorcycle riding a wheelie and costs time and money; the navy is not allowed to fire this person, but it is required to take some type of “action” in response. This type of situation is where you guys got the liberty plans and tons of training from. At the Admirals call on Kitty Hawk one of “us” asked the Admiral if he thought the liberty plans were a good use of time and necessary; his answer was simply: “Shipmate, it’s working so we are going to keep doing it.” I would say maybe 1/4 of my time is spent doing work other than my job. Annoying but acceptable.
“You don’t really travel the world”
I have traveled the world in the Navy and quite enjoy the times I have had. I don’t think 3 out of 4 days in port is that bad; maybe it is because I am from some Podunk town in VA…lol. A port visit has some annoyances but I think the benefits outweigh the detractors for me.
“You work for some real assholes”
This will be true whether you are in the Navy or in a Civilian job. The worst bosses I have had were people who stayed in the navy even though they hated it. They were too lazy to get out and also too lazy to take care of their people. I don’t want to be “that guy”
“It’s all politics”
Every job is; the difference is that when you are a civilian and you don’t play the politics; you are the fat that gets trimmed during downsizing. When you are in the navy; you are the guy who gets sent to be on a tiger team but you still get paid…lol!
“Double standard is the only standard”
I agree there are problems with the system and the only thing we can do is to ensure that we do not let it happen when we are in a position to stop it. Change the things we can, and don’t lose sleep about those we cannot.
“The stress will probably kill you”
This may be true; the navy is more stressful than other jobs. If the stress is too much during a person’s initial enlistment then they should separate and not re-enlist.
“You are married to the Navy”
It is difficult to be married in the Navy; especially dual military, but I don’t cheat on my wife, and I hope she doesn’t cheat on me, with the money we make over here I am able to fly out and meet up with her around the Pacific. Email is quite reliable these days compared to the old snail mail, and there are sailor phones on ships to keep in touch with. I don’t find it very difficult to keep in contact. No sex sux though!
“You become un-marketable”
I can only speak for my rate (ET) and say that we are very marketable to the civilian sector; the problem is that they don’t want to pay you enough to replace what the navy gives you. I was toying with the idea of getting out before I passed ten years so I put out resumes, went to job interviews for about four months. Honestly, for a 9 year ET, with a degree, and plenty of marketable NECs the best offer I could find was about 70,000.00 which sounds good on the surface, but when you figure in taxes, medical, and etc I would have been taking about a 20,000.00 pay CUT by getting out. Just didn’t add up. Now that we are in Japan; money is not even an issue. No Kids helps a LOT!
“You can’t do college while you are in”
Posted 15 Jul 2007 at 7:37 pm ¶No recruiter ever promised me a full ride to Penn State or UCLA. I got a degree from an accredited university via distance learning. There ARE professors and they teach at real universities like Indiana State, Ohio State etc. They sell kids with “money FOR college” GI bill, Navy College Fund which CAN be used to attend those nice expensive universities. Who really cares what college you took your general education requirements from? People worried about going to big name colleges are the ones who actually take the big step and get out of the Navy. More power to them. Those of us who stay in and retire at 37 or 38 years old will get jobs based on our 20+ years of experience not based on what college stamped our degree(s). I was told by numerous GS15+ people in Norfolk that your degree is not what gets you the job; it just qualifies you for the paygrade. Experience is everything.
I’ve been following this thread for a couple of days now; I wanted to fly off the handle at first, so instead I’ve thought about it for a while.
The pertinent background is that I retired a few years ago as a Commander. I’m betting that already gets a response before I even get to my comments; usually it’s, ‘you don’t know what you’re talking about’. That’s okay, I can live with that. I had a different life that what even officers have now, let alone enlisted folks.
The list of reasons not to join the Navy are all true. All the situations exist. As far as I can tell, this post is all about Jim’s life. So what’s to argue with?
The reasons I stayed in the Navy, and the reasons I’d give for someone to join, are:
(a) if you work hard and play the game you get a shot at getting a lot of responsibility. If you want that, you’ll have to totally keep focussed on your goals but you can climb to the top of the heap if you want to put forth the effort.
(b) you’ll work for assholes, but the nature of any command is temporary - either you, or your boss, is leaving in the foreseeable future. The next asshole may be better than the last, might be worse. You might find a boss who is not an asshole. In any case, you are not stuck with the same set of assholes forever. Don’t knock variety.
(c) You do get to visit unusual places. There are tours and information around, use what’s available to get away from the ship and away from the same old crowd. There are great possibilities. There are also completely frustrating aspects about having only a few hours in some of the great cities of the world but the alternative is never to get there at all.
(d) If you stay in until you retire, you get a check every month until you die (actually is that true now? What the current 20-year retirement?) It’s not enough to live on (I don’t think, anyway), but it’s a great supplement. There’s no way to describe how young 40-years-old is until you get there; but with life expectancy these days, there’s time to go back to school and have a second career. It’s amazing how many productive and fun years are still there even after twenty years in the navy.
(e) Not everybody likes the navy. Not everybody should. Otherwise the Navy wouldn’t have attrition, and the numbers would be unmanageable…and many would be fired. So you might not like it. BUT…you know where you are. You know what you’re doing. Try something completely different, out of your comfort zone, for a few years. A few years is nothing in the long run. At least you’ll have done something and challenged yourself, and if you are one of the people for whom the navy ‘works’, you’ll find that out and benefit from it.
(f)There are people who save thousands of dollars while in the service; it takes discipline and sacrifice, but the checks come regularly and you can whittle expenses down to very little. If you find that you hate it, at least put a little bit of money aside for later, and when you get out, you can look at your savings and have THAT at least.
I don’t think that Jim or anybody commenting here is going to change their minds. While I was on active duty, I saw a lot of mistakes and abuses and saw people with a lot to offer, totally turned off the Navy. Then again sometimes I saw brilliant leadership and people making incredible changes. Maybe what helped keep me in was that I didn’t totally lose track of the bigger picture - I don’t think the Navy’s flaws make the Navy worthless. Everybody’s mileage varies.
Posted 15 Jul 2007 at 11:42 pm ¶I had some great duty while I was in the Navy. I saw a lot of Europe and worked on an Admiral’s staff. I actually did the job I trained for. My negative observations were as follow:
1 - The Peter Principle is alive and well in the Navy. Sure there are many people who are excellent in their jobs, but there are so many who are absolutely pathetic and would probably be on the public dole if it weren’t for the protection of the Navy.
2 - Why does the Navy keep people with obvious psychological problems on their roles? Violent alcoholics, anti-social personalities, thieves, psychopaths, drug addicts, on and on. There was a master at arms on my first ship who was grossly obese and wore this “bum-fluff” beard who enjoyed abusing his power to the point that it was sick. It appeared that no one had any power to stop him.
3 - People who have absolutely no awareness of the world around them. Smoking was allowed in the berthing compartments and work areas when I was in. Try sleeping after a mid watch when you have people all around you talking at the top of their lungs and chain smoking. I thought I had died and gone to hell. But woe to you if you talk above a whipser when they were trying to catch some sleep. Golden rule? Never heard of it.
I got out after 4 years, but have some friends who stayed in for 20. They all say it pretty much stayed the same. I am proud to have served, but I could not see staying for a career.
Posted 20 Jul 2007 at 7:18 am ¶You know you’re sitting in your shop and Admin calls and they tell you you have a package. Think about all the wonderful and delightful treats maybe inside. Maybe its from your sweet heart or your parents of a best friend. you make the trip through the ship, hoping its going to be filled with pictures of your newly born child, or maybe a provocative letter strong with the scent of a woman. All the things you imagine that it could be and finally… finally you get to Admin for the package. you look at the address label.
American Legion post 245. ok so maybe its not what you expected. you read the customs slip and see… ok snacks, a book. maybe this wont be so bad. You take the package back to your shop re-reading the form over and over, seeing how much its worth… and when you finally tear into that package… finally unveil all the wonders that it might hold. You know what you find? 6 packages of top ramen noodles, 5 south beach diet bars (wtf) a cross word puzzle(thanks for th time killer) and some soap( everyone loves Irish spring right?) and you just sit back and say Fuck. What the Fuck. And every day after that you still hope for a package full of the same things you thought about before you got this one. Always Wishing that it was better, because in your mind….. oh what a joyous treat it is. But then you find out….. its never what you expect, never what you imagine. Once in a while you get those packages that are just……. the shit. Where you really get fulfilled in what you truly want. but most of the time its packages from…. The American legion.
You always expect so much more from the Navy, and it just isn’t what you expect. for those who didn’t understand my analogy…
Posted 29 Jul 2007 at 4:53 pm ¶I am a young female kid, 17 1/2. I am considering to join the navy after h.s and [according] to your blog, you said that “Women have a lot more power than men. ” Other than that, I “heard” from former sailors that women actually do not have more power than men; that their opinions dont really matter, and a somewhat oversizing percentage of them get raped/sexually harassed and Navy officials don’t really do anything to help them. Although this would not change my mind about joining the Navy, I am very worried about my well being. Do you have any opinions or ideas toward these situations that happen in the Navy. If so, if you could please contact me [e-mail] and let me know before I actually sign in and and get myself stuck in a real rut, that would be great. Also, fantastic blog by the way, it DEFINITELY has me thinking about my actual future and if I could really put up with this, a lot more than I thought I could.
Posted 30 Jul 2007 at 1:12 pm ¶Don’t you get a more stable income in the Navy than in the civilian world because in the civilian world, you can get fired and laid off for any reasons and it can be as simple as your boss doesn’t like you. But, in the military, it doesn’t work that way, right, does it?? So, you can get a more stable income. Am I right? Would females be sent to Iraq too or be in combat or be on the grounds??
Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 5:21 pm ¶Isabel: The job security is a bonus. The Navy is definitely not something it’s easy to get fired from. To some that could be good, and others may think it cheapens their hard work.
Women from all services have been performing an active role in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although they may not normally be in direct combat roles, it’s not all office jobs.
Posted 01 Aug 2007 at 9:35 pm ¶I was wondering if there was any way for me to contact Jim via email? We are having some issues with a family member who is considering joining the Navy and I wanted to ask him some more questions. I appreciate Jim’s honest opinion. Thanks.
Posted 02 Aug 2007 at 4:48 pm ¶I heard from the Navy recruiter that the Navy people don’t get sent to Iraq much and most people are stationed in San Diego… Is that true?? What kind of active role would women be playing in Iraq?? So, if you are a yeoman, what are the chances you get sent to Iraq and how often you would be sent to the ship and on the ship?? What is it like to be in the Navy?? I am just wondering if I should join the Navy or not. Any advice or pointers would be helpful! Thanks.
Posted 04 Aug 2007 at 7:45 am ¶Veronica Fajardo: I don’t know who these former Sailors who are filling your head with crap are, but I can assure you they have no idea what they’re talking about. When I said women had a lot of power I was talking about sexual politics. Not that they actually have more power of males, but that as being women they can sometimes be in a situation where their gender works in their favor. Now it may seem like I painted all Navy females with a broad brush, but the majority of women act and are treated just like anyone else.
The Navy, as well as the other branches, have a zero tolerance policy for sexual harassment and assault. I don’t know who told you that females are subjected to the types of situations you described, but they most certainly are not. Women and men are treated equally as a whole, and while it may happen once in a while, it’s a relatively safe place when compared to the rest of the world. The Department of Defense has many systems in place to prevent and deal with assaults. There is never an instance where someone “doesn’t do anything to help them.” Whoever told you otherwise is a lying asshole.
The Navy is not bad. My post is a sarcastic one, and while it may not be full of blatant lies, it can easily be argued that I’m presenting things out of context. Don’t decide your future based of some smart ass Sailor’s blog.
Good luck.
Posted 05 Aug 2007 at 4:58 am ¶I’ve been trying to decide lately if I should join the navy, thanks for the blog and diffrent opinions.
Sense I know you’ll tell me more truth than any navy recruiter… Do you think a carreer in medicine in the navy is a good job? I think you mentioned going to college would have been the better choice and to come in as an officer… I was thinking of getting my bachelors degree then going to a Medical school pretty much run by the navy ( I think it’s called uniformed services university). Anyway… do you think a job as a Medical Corp would suck as bad?
(p.s, sorry for all the questions but is it true a person with a history of depression is going to get rejected)
Posted 06 Aug 2007 at 9:34 am ¶Hello All! Just to introduce myself…I am 34 yrs. old and have been in civilian law enforcement for seven years. It has been fun, but I realize that this is a dead end job. No further pay or advancement to say the least. Sounds similar to the Navy. If you aren’t sucking up to the Chief, you don’t get anywhere. Hence, I have thought about joining the Navy for several reasons. I am married and have a 3yr old son. My wife has Chron’s disease and therefore has to have health insurance. Health insurance costs me $750 a month and is about to put me into financial problems. I also have ten yrs. of communications experience (mostly climbing towers and some tech work). I have 37 college credit hours along with 350 hrs. of class time in specialized schooling. I am certified in my state on firefighting I,II, and III. I scored a 70 on my asvab. It has been a real hard decision, but after reading all of this, I can only come to the conclusion that I am stepping off into the same pile of poop I am now in. The recruiter I met with was accompanied by a Chief. I also had a nine year Navy E5 with me just in case they started to tell me something too off the wall. Anyway, the Chief looked at my quals and made the comment of giving me E4 or possibly E5 on enlisting. The more I think about it the more it sounds bogus…Can any of you tell me anything that would help…Thanks!
Posted 07 Aug 2007 at 6:40 am ¶u all need 2 get a .life
Posted 08 Aug 2007 at 9:18 pm ¶Wow! I have been in the navy, and attached to a Seabee command for 3.5 years, I have taken at least 25 college courses, earned my associates (continue to work on my bachelors), and made E-5 in a rate that is traditionally difficult to advance in. Although, my successes in the Navy have been outstanding, I still would consider it a failure in life to continue on for twenty years. First of all, no where in the world will you have as many completely incompetent and unqualified people in high leadership positions. What I am saying is, that with out the navy most of the people who are in charge of me would have not made it anywhere in life, if it were not for the navy. It is very frustrating to be around so many uneducated people who lack common sense, who lack basic leadership and communication skills. The only way that I would consider making a career out of the navy, is to become an officer, because it is my desire to be around people who are more educated and intelligent than I am (so that I am motivated to excel), and who strive to learn more, not the typical enlisted sailor who has no desire to do anything accept skate. Another thing that truly upsets me about the navy is the lack of accountability, the theft of supplies, and the over-spending without cause, simply to maintain the high yearly budget.
Posted 15 Aug 2007 at 5:48 am ¶Thanks for keeping me from making a mistake that I would have to suffer from for the rest of my life.
Posted 30 Aug 2007 at 10:17 am ¶I agree with these nine points completely. Sure, there are a wide variety of Navy experiances. Unfortunatly mine mirrors this blog. I had to deal with so much unwarrented stress, restriction, hypocracy, and stuipidty when I was in the Navy. The Navy is all about “playing the game.” I only live once and I am sure as hell not going to ever “play any games” to survive again. What a rotten four years.
Posted 08 Sep 2007 at 11:28 am ¶Look man, get over it. You don’t like it, then quit or do something stupid like many others to get out of the military. You don’t realize what you signed up for? Either make a change or get out to help in advancement because your not assisting the others. Also, get out of Japan, and give back all the COLA you are receiving, since you don’t appreciate the location of where you are.
Posted 20 Sep 2007 at 11:57 am ¶Ummm …As sucky and traumatic as your 9 points are…. Would you rather be cruising around Baghdad in an under-armoured Humvee? You’ll be getting the same VA benefits that those people will get when your hitch is up. I know there’s lots of Navy people on the ground in Iraq and I’m not saying you’ll never find yourself in harm’s way ,,(USS Cole)
But, you appear to be whining while homeported in Yokosuka Japan and port visiting places like Singapore and Brisbane Australia !!! WTF is right…
WTF????????
While your points may be valid and dead-on accurate, in the grand scheme of things I wouldn’t be looking for a razor blade and eyeing my wrists if I were you. 5 years after you’re out of the Navy, you will have forgotten all of the petty bs and remember fondly all of the places you’ve seen.
“I felt bad because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet.” It’s just as easy to focus on the positives in life as the negatives. Trite platitudes? perhaps, but there’s truth in there too.
Posted 28 Sep 2007 at 6:06 pm ¶I’m joining. All you whiners are forgetting that people die every day so we can watch Jerry Springer and sit on our fat American asses all day. Someone has to make a difference. Although, I am going to OCS and then to BUD/s…hope I’m in charge of you guys one day. A bunch of whinebags and sissies you are…
Posted 10 Oct 2007 at 4:06 pm ¶I have to say that there have been good opinions supporting both view points on Navy. My experience parallels the authors in many ways, fortunately for me I realized about 2/3 of the way through my first hitch that this wasn’t for me. One my biggest problems with the Navy is manning levels. Most people who serve currently or recently will probably agree. On my ship for instance, when i reported here after “A” school in the summer of 05 we had a crew of roughly 320 or so thats about 22 officers 20 Chiefs, the rest PO1 and below. The year is now 2007 going on 08, we now have a crew of about 280, however that is not across the board the number of CPO’s and officers remains the same, so for actual PO1 and below the number of the crew is cut by about 35 to 40 people, thats’s a lot of missing positions on ship designed for about 330. Yet with reduced crew sizes they still expect us to get the same jobs done and train junior subbordinates and accomplish more missions? That is frustrating for all. Not to mention the op tempo for ships has stepped up, so pretty much the DON wants the Navy to support more deployments, with less ships, with little or no yard time. It really sucks for lack of a better word to be in the USN right now. definately not what I want to be doing when I start a family. So why should people stay in with manning levels dropping and more jobs for us already in? Well that is up to the reader to make his/her informed decision
Posted 16 Oct 2007 at 6:17 am ¶thanks to this blog, i wont be joining the navy. I was considering it, but these are some valid points. I’ll aim higher, i’ll try the airforce.
Posted 17 Oct 2007 at 6:14 pm ¶What if you like being surround by women of questionable integrity (i.e. hookers) when you pull in. I really dont see any problems with that.
Posted 27 Oct 2007 at 6:11 am ¶Hahaha, that shit is all so fucking true.
Posted 28 Oct 2007 at 2:02 pm ¶Ok, I’m 17, I’ll be turning 18 in July and have decided to join the Navy after high school. I was so into it until I read this. This just scared the crap out of me. I want to do either Emergencey, Fire, and Rescue, News and Media, or Law Enforcement and Security. Would it be dumb fo rme to go into the Navy then? I didn’t think it would be like that at all. In fact, thats the whole reason why I wanted to join the Navy so I could get away from dumbasses telling me what to do and not know how to do it themselves. Could someone please respond to me beofer I sign any papers?
Posted 31 Oct 2007 at 7:34 pm ¶Steve, no I would highly recommend the Navy. I spent ten years active, and now have 6 years reserve. It was the best thing I could have done for myself. I now work in a cushy government job making nearly six figures. I love it and owe it to the Navy. Just remember that most of the people writing these blogs are usually dirt bags. Most discuss things about NJP and going to mast, which means they’re dirt bags. Dirt bags are everywhere, even in the Navy.
The bottom line about the Navy is that IT IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT. In addition to becoming a veteran with a ton of benefits after you get out you can opt for the GI Bill, which will more than pay for any college you’ll need when you get out. Some people enjoy a long career in the Navy, my brother is retiring in March after 20 years. He personally, didn’t like his last half very much. I would say that the Navy is a nice place to visit, but you would want to spend a career there. Get it, get your benefits, get called a Veteran, and then move out and make your money.
Good luck !
Posted 04 Dec 2007 at 3:42 am ¶So I am female in the Navy; my turn to talk. I read the initail blog and almost died laughing. I ended up sucked in to reading EVERY reply/post.
My advice to people in general looking to join : there is no advice. Some are perfect for the Navy, most ARE NOT. Every job is different, EVERY situation is different. You do have a say in what job you have, but how cozy that job is, you wont have a clue. Even if you have a buddy that has a specific rate, and you like what they are telling you….. go get that rate, make it out of boot camp, and make it through school. get to your boat, or shore command, or dropped off in the sand, and find out that what they told you isnt the same as what you got.
when you sign those papers, you are putting your hand in a hat, and pulling a peice of paper.
yes, being married in the military sucks; i have a dual military marriage. sometimes (yes i know, its sound stupid but it’s true) i am grateful that the navy puts this stress on my marraige. because i know that when we get out, there cant be a damn thing that could break us if the navy hasnt.
FOR WOMEN, YOUNG FEMALES ETC. how do i start. if you have a loose one, stay the fuck out, you give the rest of us a bad name. and guys, you are right, females do seem to get treated differently, it pisses me the fuck off. i know exactly what you are talking about, and there ARE females that abuse the concept. i have to say it, but we do where the same damn coveralls. no one should be treated differently, but it happens. the only thing you can do, is correct it. if you are a respectible female, have fun, but understand that you may have to work hard, and lose close friends. you will hear of the thing called ‘perception.’ I.E. if you are hanging out with a guy for more then 5 minutes, it is already assumed you are sleeping with him. you could be a virgin, and labeled a whore. be careful. it takes a long time to get yourself where everyone knows you, knows who you are, and what you stand for.
if you are a ho, stay out of our navy, more than half of the males on my boat would run through you in a heartbeat if you simply said yes.
if you are a respectible female, good on ya, try going to college first. the navy should be your last option.
Posted 06 Dec 2007 at 11:21 pm ¶hey man i just signed my first contract with the navy, and dont ship out until may 12, how do i get out of my contract?
Posted 21 Dec 2007 at 3:52 am ¶So I’m a Jr. in College and have a 1 1/2 yrs. left at UT Austin. I’ll have a BBA in Accounting and a BA in History. I was considering OCS with the NAVY (if they’d accept me) but after reading through these blogs, two questions come to mind.
Posted 28 Dec 2007 at 11:47 pm ¶First, even though I do have a burning desire to serve my country (I wouldn’t be joining for financing college…am doing that by waiting tables)…would an officer’s life be as bleak? I mean it’s obvious that everyone’s experience is different and life is what you make of it, you gotta find solutions not problems yadda yadda yadda…but in general, are officers also making up their own lists as to why they shouldn’t of joined the military, especially after college?
Secondly, in all honesty…if there is a 24 year old college student who actually did make it through OCS to become an officer…how do they get the respect of enlisted “lifers” under him or her. If I did actually go the NAVY route after college, I would respect those under me along with those above me. And would hope that I wouldn’t be another shithead college kid without common sense trying to tell people how to do their jobs who know how to do it better than me. *Cringe*
So any advice for getting along with enlisted who probably don’t like you from the get-go?
I would agree with most of Jim’s points. I was a sub guy so we didn’t have the sexual politics - thank God. But in general the two best decisions I’ve made in life, in no particular order:
1) Join the Navy
2) Get out of the Navy
Reason to join - college benefit: After getting out in 2003 I went to the University of Illinois as a chemical engineering student - in addition to GI Bill and Illinois Veterans Grant (free tuition in Illinois) I was eligible for an additional $2k a semester in free federal financial aid (when you get out of the Navy you’re old enough to not claim your parents’ income on college federal financial aid forms, meaning that I, like all veterans in college, come across as flat broke). The complete four-year benefit was about $140,000. So because of the Navy I recieved an engineering degree from one of the more noted engineering schools in the country for basically free, and I didn’t have to make any major lifestyle adjustments or have those ramen eating days that most college students go through.
As for being marketable I had about a 3.1GPA graduating from college and got hired on for a position that normally hires only GPA’s of 3.6 or above - so being in the military gave me a “free” half a point on my GPA in terms of my market position interviewing with companys.
In support of Jim’s point about working for asssholes, it’s true that you can work for assholes in the civilian sector as well, however, the infrastructure of the Navy is more condusive to the problems created by assholes. One of my not-so-fond Navy moments involved walking to the Burger King at Pearl Harbor with my shirt off - and some random chief who didn’t know me yelled at me incessently about it (not very respectfully I might add, and if he nicely asked me to re-robe I wouldn’t have thought twice about it). Point of the story is that the Navy’s command infrastructure is such that every asshole of a higher rank than you can effect your life, not just your boss. In the civilian sector you really only have to worry about 2 or 3 people being an asshole, not 200,000.
Posted 01 Jan 2008 at 6:21 pm ¶Wow, good blog. As a former IT (Japan Sailor) with 10 years in(I got out 2 years ago), I can say whole heartedly that I agree with all 9 points. What you wrote is how most feel. Only the suck heads would disagree and I can see that some actually wrote in. Congrats to them who advanced, and remember how you got there.. on your knees. Additionally, I have to immediately discount ANY officer who writes in because their perspective is completely obscured by the rose colored glasses they wear through their careers, and the obscene sense of entitlement they wear on their collars. As soon as I hear one speak, I think the one thing that separates them from me is that diploma, yet they are lavished with perks beyond compare. See once you’ve completed that degree (paid for by the Navy)whilst in NROTC, the Navy sends you to sea in a 2 man cabin, then onward to Navy Grad school. Yep, the Navy PAYS YOU to go to Graduate school. That and so many other things. SO whenever an Officer writes in to comment about what a bunch a whiners the Enlisted are, try to remember that it is difficult for them to understand what you are going through. They are blinded by the silver spoon in their mouths. Also I hate when snooty officer calls me Shippy…..when most won’t admit to being sailors anymore….
On a more positive note: I got out after ten for most of the same reasons Jim wrote: but I took a long hard look at my life and realized I wasn’t going to let the Navy use me up and spit me out. I got my Certs and moved on to DOD Contracting. Yes, the Navy and the GIBILL paid for those. Yes its true!!! Yes, I am still working for the Navy, but I do get a lot of satisfaction running into old bosses, who try to avoid me since they can’t puff their chest out at me and bark anymore. I just smile and shake my head. AND no unlike what the ET said its not a 20K pay cut WTF?. If he thinks that his total pay package is worth over 90k then he’s been smoking his bluejackets manual. Only recently, has pay in the military come close what you get in the CIV world. I don’t work 80 hour weeks, and I see my wife every night. I get Fed Holidays off PAID. So what do I do with all this extra time??? How about working on degree? Or a buddy of mine and I are working on starting a business here in Japan. Effectively, by regaining my life, the possiblities are endless. I am so happy I joined the Navy, I have no regrets. But I am also so happy I am out. You guy find what your passion is and their will be a light at the end of the tunnel. Just wait until you get out to figure it out. Work on it now.
Posted 01 Jan 2008 at 9:56 pm ¶I agree wholeheartedly with everything Jim said. I left the Navy after 8 years to preserve my dignity. I admit it, I could not play the game . To me serving my country WAS not a game. I felt really proud after graduating from bootcamp and A School, but once I got to my first duty station, reality set in. I noticed it was all about power, prestige, and politics. The inmates were running the asylum! I got out of the Navy without significant savings, a job, or a any kind of contingency plan. I was a broke civilain before a I enlisted in the Navy, so this was not uncharted territory. I had 4 jobs in the past 5 years, and no, I was never fired or pushed out the door. When the conditions, atmosphere, or boss were not up to my standards, I quit. Imagine how liberating and free that can make you feel. In the Navy, you have to accept tyranny and miserable conditions. My dignity means more then a measely military stipend.
Posted 22 Jan 2008 at 9:26 am ¶well i met a guy who has been wanting to be in the navy since he was 2 when he realized that the reason his dad was never home was because he was at war fighting for our country
Posted 23 Jan 2008 at 2:26 pm ¶honestly i think america has enough problems and we shouldnt have so many troops over there and there sould be some sort out americas problems
but my dad was in the navy and he got shot at so he couldnt come back
but hes also a good person in general. he will always help someone and his friends were in the military and when they came back they got into alchol and drugs when they were in the war they were really messes up because if what the war did to them
i think the navy isnt as bad as people say it is
it shows how people are willing to die for us
when we forget that theres a war going on
i mean the average person gets about 8 hours of sleep. they’re all up for days on end.
you hear on the news a gun shooting in the city and you think everyone is bad in the world and then toy remember tat there are people who are willing to put their life on the line,leave their families and leave the land ways of living for us
and about the relationship thing
i would just like to say that is really messed up!
f you love someone and their willing to put their life on the line to make sure your safe,your family your friends and your country
then you shouldnt be cheating on them
you only live your life once and when their young they go anyway.
if i had a husband i would not do that. its just that simple
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i have no clue why someone would write something about people who put their life on the line for even the one who wrote that whole essay on how bad the navy is. sure its not no walk in the park but its what they choose to do!!!! you cant stop it. the only thing you can do is support it
the Navy is the best thing that could possible happen to anyone just because some may not have as many stripes the navy is off the chain …..HOLLA PO3rd
Posted 30 Jan 2008 at 4:29 am ¶This blog is a good thought provoking opinion. I happen to agree with all of the points mentioned. It is difficult to understand someone who experienced these things unless you’ve walked in their shoes. I spent 25 years in the Navy and have mixed feelings about it. I had some really great experiences and some really bad ones. Overall, for me, it was worth it to stay Navy because I had really nothing to go back to in the civilian sector. I never got along well with my parents and actually all I was doing when I turned 18 was running away from home. I stayed in the Navy because it offered me a chance to get away and make something of my life. In that regard I think I did OK. But I did see a lot of injustices and unfairness. Without going into details I would like to just say that the blog does have a distinct ring of truth to it although I do recognize it is an opinion and may be meant to be tongue in cheek on some parts! I joined in 1978 and retired in 2003 as a YNC. Cheers….
Posted 30 Jan 2008 at 9:55 pm ¶Hey I’m 25 and have been bouncing state to state, city to city for 7 years. I do tile work and I’m not retarded so I am able to make more cash than I would in the navy. However, I can’t stand tile and have no degree. This has me considering the navy. Basically I’d like to know a few things in no particular order aside from the the order thay are in…#1 Are sailors getting pussy on the ship? Is it hard due to disproportionate numbers of females? Is it easier to get foreign ass on the pacific fleet? Is it all hookers?…#2 Port calls bottom line whats the curfew, and what are the rules? Are you completely bummed when you leave with a few pictures and a half hearted sense of accomplishment for bein there but not doing it right? That question is probably rhetorical…#3 If your on a ship for weeks on end is there really a day off, like maybe a weekend or something? What do you do sit on your prick in a bunk or explore the ship? Hang out get drunk, work out, play poker, etc…#4 What is the real deal on sleeping conditions nowadays? Do dudes keep you up stinking and snoring and bullshit like that?… #5 Can you sneak into a female sailors room and get some action… #6 Is there EVER any real privacy?…#6 I guess finally with all these supposed morons who have rank on you and treat you like shit, are there ways you are subtley letting them know they are worthless scumbags you would flick off your shoulder in the real world? Would any attemt fall on deaf ears? Am i really going to be a fucking slave for 4 years? JIM GREAT WRITING, I’M GLAD I FOUND THIS. TO ALL POSTERS I ENJOYED YOUR INPUT. THANKS.. #16 BEST POST ON HERE THE DUDE IS FUNNY!!….one more thing how much partying and having fun is involved in a months time? Please tell me there is some fun to be had, lie to me damn it! (please don’t lie)
Posted 01 Feb 2008 at 6:58 pm ¶Hi all.. well no one responded but I’ve done some additional reading and feel like I may have gotten some vague answers to some of my questions. I took my asvab and got an 86 and qualified for basically everything aside for IT. I guess my math isn’t so hot. I’m going to take the plunge if my background check and phisical are fine. If any sailors read this I would appreciate opinions or advice on choosing between pacific or atlantic and also any info on the living/housing situation when not on a ship. Has the 1 plus 1 system been fully implemented? Do u get you own bedroom? Any info would be nice.
Posted 05 Feb 2008 at 5:28 pm ¶lol!!! this was great! the only thing i took exception to was the “squared away” comment section. for some of us it is just, well, “easier”. some of my friends used to really struggle with shit i found very mundane. did they really hate me? my 4.0 evals seemed to just come one after another with no real effort. For the people considering joining… I say; “go ahead and join but before you do, this should be required reading…” good job shipmate, very real and very entertaining! you’re very good! btw, “what color am i thinking of?”
Posted 09 Feb 2008 at 5:22 pm ¶whew.. First off, this is really an incredible resource for the average high school student who has had no other input on conditions of the Navy other than that of a recruiter. Everyone who has criticized the author “Jim” for being a complainer, a whiner, or someone with too much time, has greatly mistaken his intention or at least missed the importance of his article for young undecided minds. This honest perspective of the Navy provides truth that is very difficult to come by when you have never lived in the military and are considering doing so.
I have just recently turned eighteen and have been considering the Navy due to the apparent structure and displine provided and because of the variety in career options that one of my friends has taken advantage of. Like most I went to the recruiting office, saw the best of the navy and over time have come to consider it as a very beneficial option to my future.
Posted 23 Feb 2008 at 11:51 pm ¶After reading this I think I can appreciate the person who took the time to write it and the people who put in their two cents. While I am not going to completely disregard the navy, I think that these perspectives are very reflective of the average high school setup. Being in all advanced classes, I am disgusted with the unproductivity of the lower classes; it seems that if you are not going in to the navy as an E-3 or to be an officer you will see the same problems with work ethic that you see everywhere else in the world.
The best thing for a person considering the navy to do to not be naive, is obviously just what my father told me, “Do your research and find out from people who have seen and experienced it.”
I am a 17 year old female really considering the navy. Im in college right now and I plan on joining after I get 15-17 hours. I just want any advice from females in the navy. Thanks
Posted 10 Mar 2008 at 3:50 pm ¶I am a 20 year old female in the navy, and my advice to you would be if you are planning on wanting a family and settling down in your 20s the navy is not for you…the navy takes away the good family days the christmas eves spent bull shiting with your families…and worst of all no matter how many posters about sexual harrassment they put up, u will still endure quite a bit. If you are a big family person like myself you will hate the navy because seeing your family once or twice a year just isnt enough….my advice would be stay in college and keep your good years and party and get a good job, because that is where its really at.
Posted 18 Mar 2008 at 11:42 pm ¶everyone has an opinion.. still don’t know what mine is. i’m 21 and going to talk to a navy recruiter today… i dont know if i am going to join or not.. i want to.. and then i dont but i was thinking more along the line of going coast guard.. who knowsssss im clueless and have nothing left here in my town for me
Posted 09 Apr 2008 at 9:04 am ¶Here is my advice.
First and foremost…go to college and get a degree. Statistically, you will be more successful in the workplace with a degree, regardless if you join the NAVY or not.
Then if you decide that you still want to join the NAVY, you’ll be in a management type position. In any job (navy or not), the people working under you are going to find something wrong with you. So don’t be afraid of enlisted guys holding a grudge, it’s not your fault they decided to enlist after high school. Not trying to be a dick, I’m just trying to make the point that your personal decisions shouldn’t be decided by disgruntled individuals already in the workplace.
Put down the NAVY brochure and pick up a college brochure. If your saying, “but i really want to join the navy”…well then…did you know the NAVY has a program where they will pay you the monthly salary as an O1 while you finish up your degree. It’s called the BDCP (bachelor degree completion program) Thats 2400 dollars a month just to be going to school. This of course requires a 2.7 GPA and upon graduation you will begin your NAVY career as an Officer…plus your time spent in the program counts as years of service. Also, I think you have to be within 2 years of graduation to be accepted into this program.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
Posted 14 Apr 2008 at 11:11 am ¶to the detractors:
have some compassion for the guy, and further more for everyone.
do you want to live in a world were people only confide to themselves, when they are going through some tough times? then conversely,
is that how you expect to be treated? is that how your treated?
do you live life assuming that people who contradict your opinion are weak?
do you live life assured that the only people worth listening to are your superiors?
the credo to the consitution is that we are all created equally, created, as in we humans are to understand that all human life is equal (something alot of people throughout history and currently, do not adhere to. As in, what we see fit for ourselves we should see fit for others to have. That doesnt mean you have the obligation to or the privelage to force your standards on someone who chooses not to follow you. Because inside every human mind, there is a reflexive barrier, we want to remain conscious, we want to survive, and we want to enjoy life
“life is a gift to be enjoyed every second, every minute”- Mr. Lif
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I got the message, from the initial post. Jim was approaching a hypothetical
person interested in the Navy life, in attempt to de-mystify the public relations
and share his own experience. I didnt find to be a bash, as some have said. Even if it were, most bash, or have complaints about their job, station in life, etc. (religions included) These are larger institutions/establishments, one will not find them completely accomidating. Should you? thats the sales pitch, thats the sales pitch for a car, a wedding ring, college, or working at burger king (other fast food joints are available).
The world can be black and white, but usually thats within the context of a story, not actual life, not the actual 24 hours a day, for how many years you get this go round. Anywhere you go in life, anything you sign up for is temporary. The odds that you will one day work for someone half your age increase every year. The odds you’ll be grouped or paired with someone who is incompetant at their given tasks are improbably high, we all make mistakes, some people just arent engaged in learning from them and improving (a black and white statement, maybe only a half truth).
The reasons I want to enlist in the Navy, aside from the fact i am to old to join the Coast Guard are my interests, not the guarantees. I think Jim and several of you have served/experienced to a point were you have analysed the outside civilian world and the enlisted life, and the guarrantees, the deals, liberties etc. and are completely entitled to say what you do about the conditions you live in.
For its one thing for a hypothetical recruit (like myself) that you should keep your
chin up, stick it out, etc. which is meant as positive reenforcement. And its another
to say “your a baby, quit complaining, be the change you need” as some have mentioned in their responses.
With that I see a problem in communication. The idea of conflict resolution, ideally is to burst the bubble before it gets to big, to paraphrase George Soros. Where
every conflict/problem is a bubble and so is every growth/positive experience.
If inside we sit back/concede that “oh its going to burst, I might as well just throw it all away/ or this is the best its ever going to be” then of course, the pop! is going to kill, its gonna burn, and lives will be ruined.
Jim, as you mentioned one day living under a bridge, and getting out and having used a bunch of out dated equipment, thats a tough reality of it. The hypothetical 18 year old reading this, needs to know about that shit, the many many homeless veterans in post ww2 america. Nobody here stateside wants that to repeat, noone wants young men and women coming back believing they cant compete for jobs, or move on or adjust. And so I think as it does happen, that its not yours or your fellow enlisted men and womens burden alone. Civilians need to be proactive, they need to learn these things. At its base, human cooperation.
Just going to add, Ive had some real dicks for bosses/mid-managers/supervisers
some real assholes for coworkers.
looking back on it, the big problem wasnt that they were, as i perceived them to be, assholes to work for/with. the problem was I could tell them to shut the fuck up, or leave me alone, etc, quit.. sometimes i did. sometimes i didnt,
the reason its a problem, is because thats grounds for immediate termination in just
about any line of work. nagging, giving tedius unefficient work loads, being annoying? nope thats being a sufficiently effective leader/supervisor in alot of settings,, but only temporarily.
what made it better though, and still does, is having an out, looking past the time commitment i had to make, venting with friends.
just to summarize, the guarrantees that are mentioned by recruiters/pr are captivating, andthe point made by Jim and collectively by the responses is, that
dont do it just for those things (gi bill, change, travel) there are many ways to go about getting those things. Do it for those things and the specific things that come only from joing the Navy (or any branch) Same goes if your looking for civilian work, a mate, etc.
obviously some people dont, again we make mistakes, these things arent inherent
if your one to believe in destiny, then you better be damn sure your destiny doesnt involve anyone else, and if something along the lines of “I will crap today!”
NOBODY WANTS TO BE LEAD BY AN ASSHOLE/NINCOMPOOP
yet what can we do, sometimes people prove their worth at the sacrifice of others
that comes with the territory (life) promises are made, expectations are laid out, plans are put into motion. are we really to believe (civilian or enlisted) that our lives are going to be best utilized by someone else? Think about GOD for a second,
if you believe in it in some form or the other, we are not under gods control, god in whatever shape or form turned over the reigns with little regret. you must have compassion for yourself, therefor for everyone else. How this manifests is your actions and the actions of others. Some people interperate it as- I must lead- how can i lead- i must learn how- i have learned how- now i am a leader. Again, referencing relgion Jesus didnt learn how to lead, he just did. now, disregard that for a moment, Aragon didnt know how to lead the humans/ghost army etc. he just did. Luke Skywalker didnt know how to lead the rebels- he just did (well, maybe it was princess leia. Brett Favre didnt know how to lead, Abraham Lincoln, etc.
They didnt know how to lead in a way, that would please everyone, that best utilize every person all the time, and reward people based on their performance fairly, equitably.. all on their own. They just did, to a point.
The grand success they had wasnt based on their actions alone, it was based on the efforts of countless others. Lincoln-peers,army,slaves, skywalker-rebels,jedi, Jesus-his followers, Favre-his team, Aragon-elves,dwarves,wizard,army,ghosts.. etc.
I think in the back of everyones mind they have an ideal leader, whether one of the above, or someone else, some see themselves as a protage to that ideal leader, some assume there is no point in it. Ultimately, its a mistake to assume that following that lead will provide you with everything you need all the time.
Because that leader cant be there ushering you through every moment of life.
But you can have faith in knowing your making positive change by liberating others
from the burden of defeat.
the lesson maybe, that you cant lead the unwilling and the certain will lead to defeat.
Who knows what the world would be like if there was less military intervention by the United States, it might be better could be worse. If the purpose of use of our armed forces is to be our only means for conflict resolution then dont join. easy enough. dont join if you think the leaders of the country are going make the best decisions for you and your peers. They never have, weve never had a perfect president, an infallable congress, senate, and supreme court. But, with hope for the future to improve comes the responsibility to see to it.
Competition has come and will continue to come in all shapes and sizes, so to think that one person or one kind of person can answer all the problems in the world, or be the best, is untrue. If anything have faith that the cold cruel world, revolves, and some dedicate their lives to comforting those who have lost that hope (or temporarily misplaced it). In return asking for the same luxury of… peace, prosperity, consideration, freedom.
Thats my belief anyway, thanks for the blog and everyone for commenting (read them all)
Take care.
Steve
ps. if you want my music is free to download at
Posted 14 Apr 2008 at 1:52 pm ¶lastfm.com/music/steve+bc
“A common phrase is “what happens underway, stays underway” and it’s generally accepted by both parties. When you’re out to sea for a long time, both you and your significant other will yearn for the affection and love that comes with a relationship. Sailors might find it in the arms of a lady in port, and their wives might find it with shore-based Sailors or other men back home”
I’ve been a Navy spouse for 15 years and in my case, this couldn’t be further from the truth. Perhaps I’m an anomaly but in my marriage, distance and separation due to deployment has only made our relationship stronger. We’ve had to be strong and endure long periods away from each other from the beginning, way before e-mail existed. I’ve never put myself in a situation where cheating was an option. My husband has had to pull into many ports where hookers and skanks abound but I believe he respects our marriage enough not to endanger it by sleeping with one of them. There is a far-out concept called self-control and some people are actually capable of exercising it.
Divorce rates over all segments of society are high, even more so in the military- you are correct.
Please don’t assume that all marriages fall under the same umbrella of “what happens underway, stays underway”. If you go around thinking that then you will doom yourself and it will come to fruition.
Don’t associate with trashy people, and have higher standards when choosing a mate. If you become friends with someone of the opposite sex for some time, and it evolves into romance, use that friendship as a basis for the relationship- not the romance stuff. It is possible to have a successful marriage in the military.
Good luck Jim.
Posted 15 Apr 2008 at 2:28 pm ¶I agree 100%!
Posted 18 Apr 2008 at 4:21 am ¶As a female in the Navy, I haven’t really seen any special treatment at all in fact I would go as far as to say that I am treated worse. My first command was at a flying squadron. Where I actually had a chief call me a “stupid female” now I may do some stupid things at times. But I am far from stupid w/ a 3.9 HS GPA, 3.9 college GPA a 30 ACT score and over 65 on every adv test. But it wasn’t the stupid part he meant as an insult it was the female part. Maybe because it was aircrew and a good old boys club, maybe they didn’t like females but it was tough to be there. I have been in for 7 years and haven’t really done the technical job I was supposed to do in fact the last year I have wasted trying to promote something I think is incredibly stupid. There’s a lot of crap in the Navy but there’s a lot of crap in other jobs as well. I’ve never been to a ship so I get a lot of grief about not being a real sailor but I’ve done more than my fair share of deployments covering for males who went med down for things like “stress” those are the times that suck. But then there’s good things like securing at 1000 on a Friday or getting special lib or getting free medical. The Navy is what you make of it. To the females questioning if they should come in or not I say come on try it out let’s make the numbers a little more even I read some where that only like 17% of the people in the Navy are females. We are a minority and will continue to get a bad rap until we can even it out a little more. I find it funny that guys are always calling the females things like hos to them I say, Ladies we have our pick, the guys out number us by a lot, we get to pick and most of the ones who are complaining do so because we dumped their ass when some one hotter/nicer/ sweeter came along.
Posted 11 May 2008 at 7:42 pm ¶i am a 17 year old senior considering joining the navy. I got a 93 on my ASVAB, and im going to assume that that’s a fairly decent score. having said that, my question, i guess, is whether or not these opinions are based soley on the perspective of individuals who joined the NAVY as a last resort, and got stuck doing a job that they either didnt want to do, or that they simply arent good at. I have no experience, so to sum things up, i just want to know if my score might mean that i get a job thats a little more cushy, or am i still stuck filling the role of just another military peon.
Posted 13 May 2008 at 6:14 am ¶:S I’ve got a tough decision to make! My cousin is in the Navy and he’s been there for like 5 years, maybe. He wanted to be a doctor but that never happened! He decided to “re-enlist” because he feels like he must stay and help his friends (he’s in the medical division). So one day I found a job post on monster, and a couple of weeks later a recruiter was calling me to have a meeting. And it happened… suddenly I was taking the ASVAB… IT WAS SO FAST!
So my aunt got mad at me for being so dumb, and actually I want to be in the military but I would like to get in when I’ve completed my Bachelor’s Degree because there are way better opportunities for Officers than for Enlisted people! 
I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE F*CK TO DO! I feel lost, I just came 2 the US 1 year ago and it’s been really hard for me to have a life plan that I can follow! :S I’m also afraid to die in combat, I hate war, I’m confused.
Posted 13 May 2008 at 11:45 am ¶another bad thing about the navy is the racial politics. the navy is primarily ruled by flipinos who are NORMALLY very biased to their own people. i know several people who have gotten their warfare